And didn't Ziegler subsequently admit that the Somerton peopleonly learned of Bill's identity as a result of becoming suspicious ofhis manner of arrival and the costume-rental receipt in his coatpocket? Many of the nude women begin pairing up with the fully-clothed men, and the orgy begins in nearly full view. while walking down one of the NY streets, the background glowsbeautifucally. If we speculate too far then we could say it was ALL a Charade. at the >> ceremony/orgy.>, > Again, how is it 'clearly' the same voice?>. Deleuze probably realized how stupid he was before he jumped out that window. because Bill didn't get to see him up close like the film > audience.>, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Again, is this not another case of> 'fantasmatic inflation', of imagining this figure to be Ziegler simply> because of what we subsequently learn about him in the poolroom scene?> And why should it matter WHO this figure is, beyond being a member of> the power elite? Milich even tried to talk Bill into renting a more colorful costume. Some will sink but we will float.Grab your coat. The woman who had tried to warn Bill intervenes and insists on redeeming him, at an undisclosed personal cost. Somerton could hardly be >> >>>>>> described (and>, >> certainly not by Bill) as a 'party.'<<<<<<<<<<<. Perhaps it> would have worked better if there had been a photo in the news> article. Other interpretations are floating around, including the idea Alice was also at the party, and while there's no set meaning for how the mask got on that pillow, the idea Alice put it there herself seems to be the prevailing theory. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<. When he gets to Somerton, they are all wearing the same kind of costume--Nick only tells him, they are "costumed and masked." > it is clearly the same voice as the "mysterious woman." Obviously in your literal, fundamentalist world, the concepts ofmetaphor and metonomy are similarly too much for you to possiblycomprehend, viz >> I'm sorry, but this has to be said: I'm pretty sure I know what you mean,> but the way you're saying it is silly. If he wereZiegler, wouldn't he instead be going out of his way to privatelycommunicate with Bill, to get Bill out of Somerton as quickly aspossible in order to avoid any possible trouble (and as Zieglersubsequently admits, Bill's gate-crashing 'made me look like acomplete fool')? Even though much was 'cleared" up there are still major mysteries here that unless they are encoded in single frames for analyssis will alwasy be a mystery. Statanic mass? '<<<<<<<<<<< I think it is clear he was > referring to the Somerton party. I enjoy the mystery entirely and will return to it over and over and could watch the film again and again. But he can't know for sure (because she wasmasked at Somerton). He was a master ofthatslight of hand stuff. I agree though, he hadnt made a defintiive connection yet. You're coming across as yet another FUCKING TROLL!! 10 Stanley Kubricks Sudden Death. It's pronounced Paw-rick, not Pad-raig. The genre of Stanley Kubricks last film, based on the well-known story of the Austrian A. Schnitzler, The Novel of Dreams (1925-1926), can be interpreted in different ways. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Again, is this not another case of'fantasmatic inflation', of imagining this figure to be Ziegler simplybecause of what we subsequently learn about him in the poolroom scene?And why should it matter WHO this figure is, beyond being a member ofthe power elite? The most obvious answer is Alice found the mask and left it out as a way to let Bill know she knew something was going on. It was a party nevertheless. It is only when Ziegler responds> positively to Bill's question, "The woman at the party is the woman in> the morgue?" and she >> replies, "Better," and then when Bill says, "you are a very lucky girl," >> Mandy says, "I know." The (unnamed) woman in the mask who warns Doctor Cruise is the same woman who ends up dead in the morgue. "you are going to need some rehab," she says, "I > know.". Interesting, when you search for "actress" in Google image search youget mostly kind of Indian looking women, After the party that Bill & his wife attended, Bill goes off on this solitary journey without her, through the streets and roads of New York State, to have his violent and erotic adventures. "The ng will die when there are no longer any participants. Its common sense he was referring to Somerton as the party. I recognized the voice of the > mysterious woman first time I saw the film.>>, >> it is clearly the same voice as the "mysterious woman." <<<<<<<<<<. But it is obvious from Kubrick's portrayal of Somerton that thewomen are there purely as sex-workers, are there toservice the inner sanctum of male patriarchy in the ritualized desire-space of the power elite at Somerton. Indeed, the film iscentrally concerned with the failure of a 'male-centric' andpatriarchal ideology to deal with female desire; and the narrativethrust of the film revolves around Bill's increasingly hopelessefforts to flee from (but also to copy and avenge) Alice's desire, adesire from which he is completely excluded, just as he is laterexcluded from the desire-space of the power-elite at Somerton. >>>>>>>>>>>>And didn't Ziegler subsequently admit that the Somerton people> only learned of Bill's identity as a result of becoming suspicious of> his manner of arrival and the costume-rental receipt in his coat> pocket?<<<<<<<<<<<<<, > So maybe they were all wearing walkie talkies under those masks, what do, > you want me to say?..no, this IS left as a huge mystery. Given how upset she appeared following his confession, it's very unlikely she knew exactly what he was out doing, however. >> If we speculate too far then we could say it was ALL a Charade.>>, >>>>>>>>>>>That would not be valuable or insightful speculation, but a total> denial of most of what happens in the film (another variation of 'it's> all just a dream', everything being attributable to the delusions of> Bill's mind, a denial of the world of social power, similar to saying> that everything that happens to Jack Torrance in The Shining is all> 'in his mind'). This is Eyes Wide Shut revisited. On Friday, July 17, 2015 at 5:36:03 PM UTC-4, JD Chase wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjMIROKzH7s, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4N4vSijHTM, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOhxWdGuQd4, byend.removethisbityousillyper@eskimo.com, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inLfK535oxs. WebThat particular Royal event featured masked women who were as NOT dressed as those in the Eyes Wide Shut ritual. I think it is clear he was referring to the Somerton party. The way Zeigler confirms it was Mandy is matter of fact and it isn't as though Bill seemed surprised at this--even if the audience might still be confused. Given that you have, as you already admitted, absolutely nounderstanding of the terms used or indeed the context in which theywere used, your pedantry is now exposed as pure and contemptiblefraudulence. http://groups.google.com/group/alt.movies.kubrick/browse_frm/thread/16629c3d6011a459/705fb749859063b2?lnk=gst&q=treadmill#705fb749859063b2. >Apparently word of Bill's> entry into the ceremony/orgy traveled fast. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<, > This is still a mystery. He obtains the secret password to a clandestine masked ball, where he has a seductive encounter with a beautiful stranger. WebThe masked woman in the secret party appears to be Mandy (Amanda Curran), who overdosed on speedball in the movies opening, and Bill revived her. WebEyes Wide Shut. What does the mask on the pillow at the end of Eyes Wide Shutmean? ", > I'm sorry, but this has to be said: I'm pretty sure I know what you, > mean,> but the way you're saying it is silly. I'm sorry, but this has to be said: I'm pretty sure I know what you mean, but the way you're saying it is silly. He may literally have to go underground, or to the moon, etc. > that unless they are encoded in single frames for analysis will alwasy be > a mystery. <<<<<<<<<<<<<>. Eyes Wide Shut is a 1999 erotic mystery psychological drama film directed, produced and co-written by Stanley Kubrick. Again, how is it 'clearly' the same voice? So if instead, he replayed Alice's voice (or Ziegler's voice) thiswould 'prove' that the body was that of Alice (or Ziegler)? There are many, many readings of the story available, with the movie itself embracing a sort of dream/nightmare logic. > certainly not by Bill) as a 'party. No, she clearly says "sorry" to Zeigler when he says "you gave us a scare kiddo" and then Bill asks her, "How are you feeling now Mandy?" MYMENU MYMENU Masquerade Mask For Couples Web .

1925 . ", wrote:> In rec.arts.movies.past-films Harry Bailey . As though testing how well Bill's implanted suggestions had taken..????? Isn't that - again - amazing; except that you're not even unfortunateenough to have a mindless head, given the large quantities ofbubblewrap - and nothing else - between your ears take care, MrKelpless. > slight, single frame, mini-wink and subsequent eye movement was intended? (meaning > the Mysterious woman), ME"So..Victor the woman lying dead at the morgue was the> women at the party, well Victor, maybe i'm missing something > but what kind of Charade ends up with someone dead.". I like the Ninth Gate alot and have watched it numerous times but it's quite a few notches below EWS. In fact, the only actual dream in the film is unseen, is onlylater described - namely, Alice's dream/nightmare about having sexwith numerous men (strikingly similar to the fate of the women atSomerton) in which Bill is openly humiliated, and told to Bill justafer he returns from Somerton. I am ready Are you suggesting that the people running Somerton would let the> women there know that there was an interloper? Somerton could hardly be> >>>>>> described (and>> certainly not by Bill) as a 'party. > I am still on the side of those who think SK left that scene of the > reflection of the sound man holding the boom mike at his crotch, in the > crome tub enclosure, on purpose, that the DVD edited out. > > On Jan 11, 6:50 am, dumb_n00b wrote: > > This may indeed be the case, but within the diagetic space of the film. This website has Julienne Davis listed with photos--in all three scenes! Simply because we don't really know the extent of the "charade," from the Illuminatii/Secret government etc, OR what SK really had in mind---to blow our mind. Plus there is *no* *way* that a rare bookdealer would smoke anywhere near a book of which there are only threecopies in existence. Which all suggests that Ziegler didn't actually knowabout Bill's presence at Somerton until he removed his mask <<<<<<<<<<<<. And wouldn't he really feel more at home in amore errrrrrrrr Gnostic setting? But I agree the way it is done is brilliant and it leaves all of us unsure of everything, opening up infinite possibilites as to what it all means. for the morgue scene but it is still meant to be the same Mandy. at the> ceremony/orgy. Take another listen. -- Steven L.Email: sdli@earthlinkNOSPAM.netRemove the NOSPAM before replying to me. People were dancing, there was music wearing costumes, and although it was strange, calling it a "party," would not be unusual in the slightest. Well thats all true, but of course that was SK making a masterpiece and one of the most amazing films ever made IMO. >> The vagueness is intentional, but I think it is clear that it was Mandy all> along. and then Bill says, "..you can't keep doing > this," Mandy says, "Ya." The film centers on a profoundly unsatisfied couple tied together not by pure love, but by social convenience and appearances. Eyes Wide Shut cast Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman as a married couple, with the former playing a doctor who goes on a strange, sexually charged journey one What is interesting is that the film's very ambiguity concerning theidentities of the three women (Mandy, masked woman, woman in morgue),sets up a desire to 'fill in' all the film's narrative gaps anddeadlocks, a desire to shut down such uncertainty, to give - just likeZiegler - an easy, 'commonsensical' black and white 'explanation' ofevents. People and Masks: The Meaning of Eyes Wide Shut. ". (meaning the Mysterious woman) "victor the woman lying dead at the morgue was the women at the party, well victor, maybe i'm missing something heyou call it a Charadetell me what kind of Charade ends up with someone dead.". Eyes Wide Shut cast Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman as a married couple, with the former playing a doctor who goes on a strange, sexually charged journey one night when his wife admits to having had adulterous thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>> And if this firgure was Ziegler, why would he subsequentlysend a naked masked woman over to Bill for his benefit? 2. "you are going to need some rehab," she says, "I know." >What else could> he call it? And of course how did > the mask get on his pillow? I never siad Bill recognized him.we get to recognize him when we study it. --alt.flame Special Forces"All successful software gets changed." >>He also must have recognized the voice, considering that her voice is >>somewhat deep and throaty with a tinge of distinctive accent. But it isn't clear at all, and nobody in the film refers to the eventsat Somerton as a 'party.'<<<<<<<. That is what she was" implying that her deathis of no consequence because of the low-status manner in which Zieglerchooses to define her (an identity created and perpetuated by theZieglers of the world in the first place), earlier confirmed by hisdesire to get the drugged-out Mandy out of his bathroom and house("Can we put some clothes on her and get her out of here?" Was she the women at the party?" we talked about this about 8 years ago on this newsgroup . > Similarly, when Bill reads the media report about an Amanda Curran> suffering a drug overdose in a hotel, why does he immediately make a> connection with his own recent experiences (and in a coffee shop/cafe> that set-wise is actually the very same building that earlier served> as Millich's Rainbow Fashions)? Mon 14th Feb 2022 19.00 GMT. ", http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIXuHaaz5iU, > This may indeed be the case, but within the diagetic space of the film. >on the balcony looking down> at Bill, knows that it is him and nodded to him. In keeping with the filmmaker's quest for perfection, the shoot for Eyes Wide Shut famously rolled on, with the movie holding the record for the longest consecutiveshoot, as filming began in late 1996 and wrapped in mid-1998. WebSynopsis. > If we speculate too far then we could say it was ALL a Charade. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<. > It's totally clear the "party' in this reference, is Somerton. Yes, the uncertainty about the identities of the women is Structuralto the film's splintered narrative. (2) With AT&T recently announcing that they will dump almost all of their public pay phones, where can he change? Somerton could hardly be described (andcertainly not by Bill) as a 'party.' It is only when Ziegler respondspositively to Bill's question, "The woman at the party is the woman inthe morgue?" Even Sk was not perfect in that way-----or was hethere is the mystery. > not bothering, even, to use them correctly, the way that you are using > them> serves to obfuscate rather than clarify your meaning. and she replies, "Better," and then when Bill says, "you are a very lucky girl," Mandy says, "I know." A powerful man realizes one night that his wife has had not one but myriad It would be odd for him to say, "orgy," or ritual, etc. I think the voice would have rung a bell and the Newspaper story rang a bell, with the name Amanda, and of course seeing the corpse of someone who may have sacrificed her life for him--so he was in shock. There's also search enginessuch as Google where you can search for information. Is that how > you> would describe it? We could say that even Nick was in on it and the phone call to Nick in the Jazz club was a set up to pique Bill's interest, even letting Bill knows the password. These ceremonies must have been a big customenr for his former patient. Well, in the interview with "Mandy" - Julienne Davis. He only ultimately accepts Ziegler's account because itgives him a convenient alibi (as well as because of Ziegler's powerfulposition - Bill is Ziegler's man, obeying his orders, subscribing tothe demands and realities of Ziegler's world). Even Ziegler only uses that wordin reference to his own earlier party, while referring to the Somertonrituals always more elusively: "I was there, at the House", "what ifwhat happened was a fake, a charade", etc, but no mention of any'party' at Somerton. > Well thats all true, but of course that was SK making a masterpiece and > one of the most amazing films ever made IMO. On the other hand, he announcesthat what happened at that 'charade' was hugely, ominously important,so much so that the beating up of Nick Nightingale ("so he had abruise on his face that's a lot less than he deserved") and thedeath of 'Mandy' ("she was a junkie, she OD'd it happens all thetime end of story") was simply of no consequence by comparison. He had no reason to think Zeigler was at Somerton, > till Zeigler tells him. > anything and 2. never actually spoke (just some unintelligible > mumbling),<<<, > No, she clearly says "sorry" to Zeigler when he says "you gave us a scare > kiddo" and then Bill asks her, "How are you feeling now Mandy?" I found them both disappointing. > But I agree the way it is done is brilliant and it leaves all of us unsure > of everything, opening up infinite possibilites as to what it all means. ", "Victor what can I say. ", "They were nutcases. What a mish mash of mental masturbation that is.. Psycho-semi-freudian-lacanisn-junkie-marxist babbling. >>>>>>>>>>> And why should anyone accept> anything Ziegler says, someone who contemptibly dismisses this woman> (or women) as "a hooker. Apparently word of Bill's entry into the ceremony/orgy traveled fast. I actually had to look that up. Perhaps itwould have worked better if there had been a photo in the newsarticle. No, it was just set up that way, as a puzzle, so that there would beendless discussion. (Just like we dream alone, even if we're in bed with someone else.). Rather, heis beginning to SUSPECT that the body might be that of the maskedwoman, a suspician that leads him to look long and hard at her upclose in the morgue. It is as if he Wanted, as if hedesired, compelled, it to be so again, its at two - simultaneousbut contradictory - levels (as ALWAYS in many of Kubrick's films -like in The Shining: are the spectral ghosts 'real' or is Jack etcimagining them? Now that's out of the way, a brief introduction. As opposed to arborescent: two contrasting concepts central to muchphilosophical debate over the past few decades (see, for instance, thework of philosophers Deleuze and Guattari). Nevertheless, those two recollections(one of a fantasy, one of a dream) constitute the very desire whoseexclusion (from the quotidian, commonsensical, 'social reality' of theHarfords' marriage) the film is exploring. "you are going to need some rehab," she says, >> "I know.">. That is what she was" implying that her death> is of no consequence because of the low-status manner in which Ziegler> chooses to define her (an identity created and perpetuated by the> Zieglers of the world in the first place), earlier confirmed by his> desire to get the drugged-out Mandy out of his bathroom and house> ("Can we put some clothes on her and get her out of here?" because Bill didn't get to see him up close like the film audience. in fact if you look very closely, Mandy on the Slab, winks. Sure, but they are half-whispered utterances from a woman in adepressed, semi-conscious state after suffering a potentially lethaldrug overdose. <<<<<<<<<<<<<. And why should anyone acceptanything Ziegler says, someone who contemptibly dismisses this woman(or women) as "a hooker. But which'party' is Bill referring to? It's not like > he is going to voice all his thoughts.>>>, >> >>>>>> But which 'party' is Bill referring to? I think this feeling of guilt and outrage at a murder, would be the first thing on his mind. So check out Mandy's Wink on the slab---it's very fast, but it is there:), Yeah but he used the same actor for different roles in Dr Strangeloveand in some scenes of Eyes Wide Shut he has Cruise on a treadmillagainst a blue screen using real photography of NYC behind him, thenin the next scene Cruise is filmed against a set in england. The Daily Planet may go under too. 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